Aalayna Green joins the Agents of Change in Environmental Justice podcast to discuss how race and gender intersect with conservation and how we can move toward more justice-oriented relationships with the natural world.
Green, a current Agents of Change fellow and Ph.D. candidate in the Department of Natural Resources and the Environment at Cornell University, also talks about how trips to the zoo inspired her as a child, and where she finds optimism in the current and future field of conservation.
The Agents of Change in Environmental Justice podcast is a biweekly podcast featuring the stories and big ideas from past and present fellows, as well as others in the field. You can see all of the past episodes here.
Listen below to our discussion with Green and subscribe to the podcast at iTunes or Spotify.
Transcript
Brian Bienkowski
All right, I’m now joined by Aalayna Green, our second guest from this cohort. I’m so excited to talk to her. Aalayna, how you doing today?
Aalayna Green
I’m good. How are you?
Brian Bienkowski
I’m doing great. That’s my new little Jack Russell mix that’s shaking in the background. If listeners can hear that. I apologize in advance. So Aalayna, where are you today?
Aalayna Green
So I’m in Ithaca, New York, which is in upstate New York. It’s really nice today, which is pretty abnormal, because it’s normally snowing or raining or gray. So it’s very nice to see the sun.
Brian Bienkowski
And for the listeners, we were talking about this just a minute ago before we hit record and I’m in the Upper Peninsula. And we have both experienced this kind of mild winter. And I am really glad to hear that Aalayna agrees with me because many people are enjoying this. And this is not normal. We need snow and cold and all that good stuff. So hopefully next year, but we have something in common. And you are the second guest in a row. And listeners are probably sick of me talking about Detroit. But you spent at least part of your childhood in the Detroit area as did I and I know the Detroit Zoo had a lasting impact on you and where you are today. So can you talk a little bit about what role the zoo played in your early years and how it shaped your interest and passions?
Aalayna Green
For sure. So generally, if I wasn’t at the library, I was at the zoo. The Detroit Zoo was somewhere where I was able to truly feel like myself, and also be immersed in an environment that always made me excited and was something that I always wanted to return to. So for a long time, I kept a composition notebook that I filled with animal facts. And I jokingly say that this is my first time making field observations. And I would collect these facts at the zoo and then make sure that they were true at the library. So it was a very in-depth research projects that I kept going on for years and years and years. But I also associated the Detroit zoo with family, as I used to go there with my mom or my grandparents. And I also remember being so excited to take my little brother to the zoo when he was first born. So it holds a very special place in my heart, because it nurtured my passion for wildlife in the environment. And I really credit the Detroit zoo for where I am today.
Brian Bienkowski
It is adorable to think of just a little kid fact checking there. At the library, I went to the Detroit zoo and I was not doing that I was probably crying for cotton candy and running around being a pain in the butt. But that is that is really cool. I think that excitement portion is something that’s so important for kids because you know most of us are exposed to science and nature in some ways. But if you can get kids excited about something I think that’s really key. Was there a specific exhibit or animal that really got you?
Aalayna Green
So my favorite animal are ant eaters and I was just, I have an ant eater tattoo now like I’m very, very involved with my eater love and I don’t I still don’t really know why I like them so much. I think it’s just their nose and and they are also like secretly aggressive. I remember like one of… it’s a little bit more a bit, but one of the first facts I learned about them is that they’re able, like with their claws are able to disassemble a jaguar, just like with one swipe. And I thought that was so cool. And I would spend so… it felt like to me hours, but it was probably only like 5-10 minutes, because, you know, my mom wasn’t running around with the composition notebook. She wanted to go through the zoo and go home. But yeah, I just I just love ant eaters I think they’re so cool. And they were definitely my favorite part and still are my favorite part of the zoo today.
Brian Bienkowski
So how did this interest in wildlife and nature manifest as you as you move forward in your education and career? Did you have any cool animal-related jobs before you got into academia?
Aalayna Green
Yeah, so in undergrad, I went to Michigan State University and I was a zoology major. So my interest in wildlife and nature really had an impact on my undergraduate career and then also where I am today. So I was a zoology major. And then I was also the Vice President of the MSU zoological Students Association, which is basically where a bunch of zoology nerds get together and talk about animals, which was my cup of tea, I loved it. And initially, I had full intentions of going to veterinary school. So a lot of my animal-related jobs were to prepare me for a career in zoo and wildlife medicine. So for a long time, I volunteered at the binder Park Zoo in Battle Creek, Michigan, I was also a wildlife rehabilitation intern at Howell Nature Center, which was in Howell, Michigan. And there, I took care of 1000s of injured animals from snapping turtles to possums. And I was also a receptionist at a veterinary emergency clinic, which was also where I learned I did not want to go to vet school anymore, but I think was really helpful and kind of shaping my love for animals, and then also guiding me to where I am today.
Brian Bienkowski
Yeah, equally important is finding things that you do want to do is finding things that maybe you don’t want to do on your on your trajectory. And I want to talk about the work that you’re doing now and kind of where you settled into this field. But first, what is a moment or event that has helped shape your identity.
Aalayna Green
So in connection to kind of where I am today, I think the first moment was more professional. And this was when I found my first research experience in conservation social science. And I was in my sophomore year of undergrad. And this is also the point where I realized I didn’t want to go to veterinary school for a lot of reasons, not just in relation to like the job I mentioned previously. So I had apply to a lab that was studying conservation criminology, which is essentially crime science for wildlife. And the ad posting was looking for an assistant that was fluent in French and ArcGIS, which is a digital map-making tool. And I didn’t know how to do either, but I applied anyway. And a couple of weeks go by and I receive an email from Dr. Meredith Gore that says, “Hey, I got your application. I’m in Madagascar right now can we connect when I get back?” And I was like, of course. And so a couple more weeks go by, and I’m finally in Dr. Gore’s office. And she pulls out this map of the Republic of Congo. And she shows me bushmeat markets and these urban trading centers and these forests and like this huge, like flurry of excitement, and concludes with “that’s all I know, what are your thoughts?” and the rest is history. And I would say that the second moment is becoming a big sister. My brother and I are 13 years apart. So we still managed to fight. We still managed to quarrel like siblings. But he’s taught me a lot of strength and humility in ways that I had never expected. And I found out recently that I’m his academic role model. And hearing that from an 11 year old makes me feel so cool. Because I’ve like I’m still relevant. This is awesome. But he also gives me a lot of hope, and he makes me feel important, and that I’m good enough, like even on my worst days.
Brian Bienkowski
That is incredibly sweet. I really like both of those those anecdotes. Did you ever learn French?
Aalayna Green
I have not.
Brian Bienkowski
Didn’t have to.
Aalayna Green
That’s all I got.
Brian Bienkowski
I didn’t know that one. I think that was Yeah. That is. That is That is excellent. And so you are now a conservation social scientist. And I think this is a pairing of words. I don’t think most people hear that very often. I know it was somewhat new to me and I’m you know, I’m I feel like I’m kind of steeped in this field somewhat. So can you describe what this field entails and how environmental justice plays a role in in this type of research for you?
Aalayna Green
Definitely. So conservationists typically have a species or an ecosystem that they focus on. So there’s people who will study fish or people who will study like boreal forests, and with conservation social scientists, my species are people. And I study people’s relationships to their environment and to conservation efforts. And I kind of came to the environmental justice aspect of conservation and conservation social science, because I saw like a general lack in conversation around the intersection between the two. But to me, conservation always requires a justice element. And these narratives that advocate for truly wild spaces, or landscapes that are devoid of people have made it a lot easier for this disconnect to become mainstream in these types of conversations. But those narratives often miss a large part of the truth, such as within national parks or protected areas, wilderness reserves, or like, quote unquote, “natural spaces,” people were still a part of that landscape. And I think this process of returning land, of returning these cultural relationships to wildlife and these conservation spaces, is a way of practicing environmental justice within this context, that is pretty different from what we hear about EJ interventions or like EJ in general.
Brian Bienkowski
I wonder if we can, can break that down a little bit. So I live in the Upper Peninsula. And, you know, my wife’s a tribal member up here and used to work for the Sioux Tribe. And I think what you’re getting at, and I don’t want to put words in your mouth, but I’d like to explore this is thinking through an indigenous lens, the idea of something that’s the wild and protected, that’s also a place for gathering, for hunting, maybe some kind of, you know, customs or, you know, cultural rituals, whatever. So, you know, that idea that, you know, traditionally has been kind of, you know, from white environmentalists has been let’s protect this area. Am I getting that right? Or are there other aspects to that, that I’m missing?
Aalayna Green
No, I think you’re definitely getting at it, right. But even our understanding of like, how these spaces became like protected areas in general, right? because a lot of protected areas first started off as like hunting reserves, or like game reserves for white hunters to be able to use wildlife. And this was in opposition to the more sustainable practices of local or indigenous groups. And when conservation became like a bigger thing, like particularly within the early 1900s, and then again, in like the 1970s, there was a shift to like “all hunting is bad,” or like, criminalizing local and indigenous practices immediately became like, an antithesis to conservation efforts. And I think a lot of this is still being kind of unraveled and critiqued. But a lot is still remaining in like the general public, which I think has allowed it to allow these types of narratives to continue to exist and has furthered like this divide between people and wildlife and people in nature, particularly when it pertains to people who are not white, or people who are, like indigenous and things like that.
Brian Bienkowski
And a lot of the people, you know, pushing for these wild spaces at this point are probably well-meaning, right? so it’s a matter of having folks like you to kind of explore these intersections and you know, and educate, and one of my favorite parts of this job is hearing about, you know, kind of breaking down the silos. And when I was learning about your research, use insights from Black feminism and decolonizing feminism to understand gender and racialized violence intersections with conservation, which, you know, again, in my brain, all of those were kind of siloed. So it’s really cool to think about this all as one and I was wondering if you could talk about your focus, specifically on the – pardon my pronunciation– is it the Chobé National Park in Botswana, to show how these insights and intersections come together.
Aalayna Green
So I think a lot of my interest in like intersecting feminism and conversations around gender and race within conservation comes from my own experience as a Black woman, particularly within natural resources, which is a predominantly white field. I’ve traditionally been the only one in all my classes. So it’s been something that I’ve experienced personally, but then was seeing an incredible lack of information around in my scholarship, in my classes, and even in my own research, or like the research that I was going into. And so within Botswana, Botswana specifically has a no hunting ban, which makes it so local communities are not allowed to hunt in the national parks or protected areas. And the way that these bans are often enforced are through a shoot-to-kill policy, which is exactly what it sounds. It gives the people enforcing the these policies the right to shoot anyone that they suspect is poaching and I saw the similarities to police brutality in the US and there have been instances where the shoot-to-kill policy has been used unjustly. And this has had a significant impact on Namibian people specifically, who live across the Chobe River which separates Namibia from Botswana’s Chobe’s National park. And I think about a lot of times where the shoot-to-kill policies or these very lethal policies are used, like around the world in different contexts. And even in the early days in South Africa, there were times when rangers were told to shoot any Black person that they saw in the park. And so there are these really deep racial undertones that are remnant of colonial game laws, and are still making their appearance in conservation policy today. So a lot of these lethal consequences of these policies are felt by men. But these broader like indirect impacts are felt by women, children and communities. And so we’re seeing generations of men being incarcerated or executed, which alters these family dynamics where women are not only becoming widows, but they are also becoming the sole economic provider for their households. And so largely, what I’m attempting to understand is how these impacts are connected to the National Park and these policies. And whether these policies are even successful in protecting biodiversity, or if they’re more successful in maintaining these colonial ideologies.
Brian Bienkowski
So I think most people in the US, maybe I’m wrong, would would think of a shoot-to-kill policy as pretty extreme. And I’m wondering if there are, are there examples? Obviously, we don’t have that going on in the United States. But are there examples that you can point to in the conservation space of gendered or racialized violence here in kind of the comfort conservation world?
Aalayna Green
Oh, definitely. I mean, we can see like, the, our national parks that were established, they came from the forced removal of indigenous peoples and indigenous peoples in the United States are still barred from traditional foraging, traditional hunting, and even like ceremonial practices with wildlife or even access to their homelands. And we even see, like the construction of the Dakota Access Pipeline, that’s a form of conservation injustice, and in regards to like water conservation, and things like that. So we see these really big impacts. And these really kind of tiered forms of violence, where some violence is slower, and these types of slow violence is have these impacts that we’ll see maybe a little bit presently, but we know will have a greater impact on generations down the line. Or we’ll see violence that’s more immediate and more direct, such as the shoot-on-site policies. And I think the these understandings around the shoot-on-site policies, and the lack of opposition to them by the international community, largely comes from this huge divide. And these huge, ingrained like anti-Blackness that we see, when it comes to relationships between people and wildlife, where people who are poaching likely do not want to poach or are poaching because they need to supplement their income or they need food. There’s very few I think, that are poaching for like these really huge, like monetary gains, like from ivory or from selling furs or something. I think more people are poaching like small animals to feed their families, right? But we are kind of creating, especially within these types of narratives, there are blanket statements that all poachers are bad or all poachers deserve to die. And those are articles that I’ve seen, like in regular newspapers that are fed to like the US public and the European public specifically. And so I think that’s a large reason why these policies are able to be implemented and pushed through because of this, like, very ingrained anti-Blackness that is, I guess, all encompassing of conservation, and particularly conservation that we see on a daily basis. And the only reason that I’ve been able to understand like, these layers of anti-Blackness and race and how they have an impact on what policies are used within, like, law, I guess, are policies that are able to be implemented. And the people who are suffering from it, is because I’ve been introduced to people who have seen the other side of these policies, and I’ve gone out searching for that information, because it’s really well-hidden. And that’s really intentional, I think.
Brian Bienkowski
And so we’ve had guests on here before, specifically one of my favorite guests I’ve ever had Dr. Jennifer Roberts from the University of Maryland. I don’t know if you’ve come across her work, but she spoke about the mental health benefits of nature green spaces, protected areas, you know, and spoke to what you’re speaking to, you know who feels safe in these spaces and allowed to use them basically. So I’m wondering what role you think “greening” and I’m giving quotes there can play in more justice-oriented conservation?
Aalayna Green
So I think this idea of “greening” or promoting justice-oriented conservation is entirely dependent on whether or not local communities are extended the same benefits. And so greening, especially around protected areas has the potential to further ostracize local communities from their lands and territories. And so greening then would be similar to greenwashing, where the only people who would be benefiting from conservation greening would be foreigners, investors or tourists. But it would be touted as like this huge, like, benefit for conservation, but not a benefit for local communities. And so I think using greening to promote justice-oriented conservation would entail a return to land for local communities, and also cultivating relationships with the environment that makes sense under the context of those relationships.
Brian Bienkowski
So do you have examples of projects or places that have successfully and intentionally incorporated gender and race and justice into conservation practices? And if so, what can we learn from these examples?
Aalayna Green
Yeah, so there are globally like instances where conservationists have worked with local communities and/or indigenous groups to practice community-based conservation, which centers the needs and ideals of the community over the ideals of the conservationists. And in regards to race and gender. I think a lot of the work around those topics are still really theoretical or exploratory at the moment, just because it hasn’t really been talked about or implemented in practical ways. Or there are times where I think gender, specifically in regards to women has been weaponized within conservation spaces, such as like all female anti-poaching units, which are still kind of creating and cultivating these dependencies on these punitive systems, which rely on incarceration of low-income and/or indigenous peoples. And so I think what I’m trying to understand is how to cultivate a conservation practice which is cognizant of the unique identities of individuals and can be used in ways that do not further contribute to marginalization.
Brian Bienkowski
So what is nature is such a broad term, and the environment is even broader. And I’m just wondering someone who’s dedicated their life to this, what does nature mean to you now? I’m assuming you’re not still going to zoos with a notebook– Maybe you are. But how do you enjoy some of the spaces that your research seeks to promote and foster?
Aalayna Green
So for me, nature means home. It’s where I feel most myself, and it’s where I feel truly connected. And is essentially where I remember why I’m doing the things I do. And even, I mean, it’s probably not the best reason to choose a graduate school. But a large reason why I chose to come to Cornell is the nature and the ability to do grad school in the mountains and by the Finger Lakes was a huge draw for me. And I also take time to enjoy the natural areas outside of the national parks or conservation areas that I work in. So for example, my Botswana collaborators have a research center that is over an hour away from Cassani, which is the main urban center in northern Botswana. And my first night there, I fell asleep to the sounds of 1000s of zebras in the middle of the zebra migration. And I also enjoyed coffee on the porch as I watched a newborn Impala learn to walk. And it’s these moments like this to help me like recenter and kind of remember that, like, remain optimistic. And remember that things aren’t all that bad. And things are still growing and things are, there’s a lot of hope that’s left.
Brian Bienkowski
And you mentioned being optimistic when you come across these kinds of things. I want to expand on that, what it whether it’s in your research field, or just in general, what are you optimistic about?
Aalayna Green
Yeah, so genuinely, I am really optimistic about tomorrow. And I think in conservation, specifically, a lot of emphasis is put on the collapse of ecosystems and the looming biodiversity crisis. And like all these things that need to be resolved or that are impending, and that are features are, they’re just not, they’re not there anymore. And I felt that especially going through my undergraduate career, where I felt an extreme amount of guilt and anxiety about the shape of the world. But I think reorienting myself to see the positives and see, these efforts are being made to create a better future, despite all these bad things, is something that gives me hope. And to borrow from one of my mentors, I consider myself to be a chronic optimist. And I believe that things can be better and that there are genuinely good people out there who are working to create a world that is inclusive, is full of light and is reflective of what we want to see.
Brian Bienkowski
Excellent. Well before my last question I have three, fun, rapid-fire questions where you can just answer with one word or a phrase. And Aalayna, thank you so much. You know, for this time today, it’s been really great to hear about your work. So if I’m having a rough day, the best way to cheer myself up is Donuts. It’s a good one. Who doesn’t, right?
Aalayna Green
right.
Brian Bienkowski
One place I want to travel to but haven’t yet is
Aalayna Green
Costa Rica.
Brian Bienkowski
One of my favorite movies is
Aalayna Green
The Bob’s Burgers movie.
Brian Bienkowski
Oh, gosh, we are kindred souls in that in that regard. And you do not have to limit yourself to one word or a phrase here. And I happen to know, from meeting you in Philadelphia at our retreat that you have read some really cool literature. I know to you know, on Black feminism and other things, and I don’t know if that’s where you’re gonna go here. But what is the last book that you read for fun?
Aalayna Green
So the last book that I read, slash I’m still currently reading for fun is “The Kingdom of Gods” by NK Jemisin, which is the third book IN the inheritance trilogy. And I’m a huge fan of Black science fiction and fantasy. And this book explores the dimensions of immorality and morality in a really unique way that has been super exciting. And also her books are… They’re just, they’re addicting. Like, I, I feel like a lot of times with science fiction or with fantasy, you have to kind of get through like the first 50 pages to understand what’s going on. But as soon as you do, it’s just you have to keep going. You have to know what’s going on. I just I love her work. I think it’s amazing and highly recommend.
Brian Bienkowski
I am definitely going to check that out. Because that’s what gets me sometimes is that initial period where I’m like, “Okay, what is the world who are these?” Like, you just have to orient yourself? Exactly. And I totally agree, but an addicting book is one of life’s great pleasures. Well, Aalayna, thank you so much for your time today. I’m just so excited to have you as part of our program when I remember reading your application and seeing the work that you’re doing. And it’s just so unique and different than what we’ve had in the past. So I’m just so glad you’re part of this. And thanks so much for your time.
Aalayna Green
Yeah, thank you. It’s wonderful to be here. And I’m excited for what’s next.