Dr. Denise Moreno Ramírez joins the Agents of Change in Environmental Justice podcast to discuss how she came to embrace community-centered research, and her research on the hidden toxics in auto shops and beauty salons.
Moreno Ramírez, a postdoctoral research associate at the Center for Toxicology and Mel and Enid Zuckerman College of Public Health at The University of Arizona, also talks about how we can better protect workers, the uphill climb against harmful beauty standards and how punk rock changed her life.
The Agents of Change in Environmental Justice podcast is a biweekly podcast featuring the stories and big ideas from past and present fellows, as well as others in the field. You can see all of the past episodes here.
Listen below to our discussion with Moreno Ramírez, and subscribe to the podcast at iTunes, Spotify, or Stitcher.
Transcript
Brian Bienkowski
Hello and welcome back to the Agents of Change in Environmental Justice podcast, a partnership between Environmental Health News and Columbia University’s Mailman School of Public Health. We are here every two weeks, so please subscribe to us wherever you get your podcasts and join us. I’m Brian Bienkowski, senior editor at Environmental Health News in the editor of Agents of Change. I just want to take a moment and point out the fantastic job our social media team does and encourage you all to follow Agents of Change in Environmental Justice on Twitter and Instagram. Not only will you get to know the next generation of environmental justice leaders, but you can be part of our community. So hop on board. Today I am talking to fellow Dr. Denise Moreno Ramirez, a postdoctoral research associate at the Center for Ttoxicology Mel and Enid Zuckerman College of Public Health at the University of Arizona. We talk about how she came to embrace community-centered research, the hidden toxics in auto shops and beauty salons, how we can better protect those workers and the uphill climb against harmful beauty standards. Enjoy. All right, I am super excited to be joined by Dr. Denise Moreno Ramirez. Denise, how you doing today?
Denise Moreno Ramírez
I’m doing pretty good. And how about you, Brian?
Brian Bienkowski
I’m doing excellent. And where are you today?
Denise Moreno Ramírez
So today I’m in sunny Tucson, Arizona.
Brian Bienkowski
Sunny Tucson. Well, I drove through whiteout conditions to be here back at my house today. I was west of here. So we have different experiences. But let’s stay on this theme of place. So you grew up near the U.S.-Mexico border. Tell me about your upbringing there and how this cross culturalism may have shaped you.
Denise Moreno Ramírez
I guess so I grew up in Ambos Nogales, or the sister cities of Nogales, which is located in the Arizona-Sonora border. And my family is divided by an actual political boundary. But I grew up surrounded by family members from Mexico. We were the first family to migrate to the US side where my parents purchased a home. And I grew up hearing stories about the fluidity of this border in the olden days. There were specific times I guess, during the holidays, when it was easy for individuals to walk back and forth for commerce and family. But that was a long time ago, before my time. And today the border is different. But it was a great place to grow up. I lived Monday through Friday on the US side. And on the weekends I would travel with my grandmother to her home on the Mexican side. So my grandmother raised me because my parents worked to give me the life I had, which was different from theirs. And these two very different experience shaped me into the woman and scientist I am today to tell you the truth. For example, when I went to Mexico, we didn’t have running water. So in Mexico, I viewed water very differently as compared when I was on the US side when we did have running water. And on the US side, I grew up with a lot of kids, it was really good for me because I was an only child. And my parents still live in that same neighborhood as well as a lot of my friends and parents. Until this day, I go to my parents house and the neighbors call my parents home or they come to see me, I still have the same group of friends and they completely understand me. So it was a great way place to grow up. And it taught me a lot about life to tell you the truth.
Brian Bienkowski
At what age -maybe you can’t pinpoint an actual age- But I’m just wondering, it’s such a unique, a unique geographic location to be on a border and as a kid, you don’t you know, what’s a political border to a kid? It’s all land, you know, you look and there’s places to play. I’m wondering, do you remember when it kind of struck you that this was a this was a border and things may be different on both sides?
Denise Moreno Ramírez
Yeah, I guess it was during that experience of a child going back and forth. So it was like living in my house on the US side and actually going through the physical border, seeing all the different customs agents, you know, having to stop at the Mexican border inspection and things of that sort. And then how I said I guess then living in my grandmother’s home and then experiencing that, you know, here we don’t have water, here we don’t have hot water. And you know, we actually have to, it’s a big thing to actually bring the water to our home and have it. So I think that that really kind of had I had like these sharp contrasts that really kind of opened my eyes to kind of what happens in Mexico as compared to what happens in the US.
Brian Bienkowski
Right I, I live on the Canadian border up here, where I-75 ends. And I talked to folks. And obviously those borders are vastly different for all kinds of cultural and political and social social reasons. But even talking to people that were live, where I live now 20 years ago or so, saying how different the borders were back then where people lived on both sides, and it was basically kind of one community. And now, it’s it’s not that anymore, it it’s become increasingly difficult to pass through easily. And I can imagine on the Mexico border, that’s even, that’s even more so. So what role did science or the environment play in those early years? And when did you know that you wanted to be a scientist?
Denise Moreno Ramírez
Well, as a scientist, I obsessed about the ocean and Jacques Cousteau. I asked my parents for the Jacques Cousteau encyclopedia, I wanted to be an oceanographer, so bad. And I think that it was influenced by my dad’s hobby of diving, like him and his friends had a piece of land in Puerto Lobo, Sonora, Mexico, where we would travel in an RV to camp and this is typically not within the Mexican culture. But my dad hung out with race car mechanics, that he that that’s what they did. So I was exposed to the beach environment early on as a child and the sea life. And the freedom to explore the environment really got me thinking about nature. And my dad also watched a lot of science programs with me as a young girl, and he encouraged me to watch them, and even bought me like World for Kids subscriptions, like he would always encourage my science curiosity. And then my grandmother also encouraged me to become a plant hobbyist, she would teach me about plants and how to make them grow. And I had a piece of land in my parents garden. And as I, that I started growing exotic cactus and succulents when I was in elementary, believe it or not, and like my collection got really big. And as I got older, I started becoming introduced to like plant identification books. And so I would go out to the Patagonia mountains where my dad was born, and identify plants that were part of the region. And in the pandemic, I became reconnected with it. But and also an additional story is that, as a young adult, I experienced helicopter science in my community, because industrial chemicals and military contamination was causing people in my community to become sick or die. And after that experience, that’s really when I realized that I should become an environmental scientist.
Brian Bienkowski
That’s excellent. So you both had this kind of intro to the beauty of the environment and the ways that can really invigorate us and make this planet worth saving. And then kind of the ugly side of the, you know, environmental injustice and environmental issues, and scientists doing things the wrong way. So I really appreciate that. And it sounds like you had a lot of pivotal moments in what you just said, but what is the defining moment that has shaped your identity up to this point?
Denise Moreno Ramírez
You know, what, Brian, I was gonna give you originally a very generic answer. But I’m not. I really thought about it. Because, you know, you have that generic question that you have in your back pocket, but I actually thought about it. And a defining moment for me was when I discovered punk rock music. I heard the Dead Kennedys song “Holiday in Cambodia.” And that was it. That son describes things in a way that impacted me. I remember, there was another person in my junior high they had listened to them. And we were, we thought we were super cool. When I was older, I became immersed in the punk rock scene, I started going to punk rock shows in the United States and in Mexico, and it was a movement. I listened to bands like Minor Threats, Fugazi and then I became a fan of radical punk from Spain and the Basque Country that includes bands like Eskorbuto. And all that music became my anthem for my undergraduate period to tell you the truth, it was the best way for me to learn about ideas that were not readily discussed in school or in the university. For example, that is where I first started reading about books about environmental racism, and social justice. At a lot of the shows, they had books and ‘zines that were discussing these radical ideas, and there were books from all over the world sometimes and it was definitely a big defining moment. I still to this day, have some of the books and zines that I bought in the punk rock shows as well as the mixed tapes and records.
Brian Bienkowski
I love that! that is such a great answer and I could really relate so when I was in college, I got really into the Grateful Dead which is kind of a punch line for people you know you’re smoking pot and listening to the dead and sure there was plenty of that, but it opened my eyes and brought me in front of people who were very interested in not only kindness and love and peace and values I still hold today, but also the environment and protection of the earth. And it kind of… god it kind of changed me as a human in so many ways. And I, so I totally understand that. And when you talk about the punk movement, it’s not just the music, like you said there is, they were speaking to a lot of social ills. So I think that’s, that’s a great answer. That’s one we’ve never had on this podcast. So I’m glad you didn’t take the generic route. So let’s talk about some of the work that you’ve done since since you became a scientist. So I want to talk about the Voices Unheard: Arizona’s environmental history project I saw that you were part of. So this was a community-engaged oral history to study the narrations of people living and working near two Superfund sites in Arizona from 2016 till 2020. So can you tell us a little bit about the project and most of all, what we can learn from these kinds of community narrations when we think about contaminated sites?
Denise Moreno Ramírez
The Voices Unheard project was my doctoral research project. I collaborated with communities in South Tucson and Dewey Humboldt, Arizona. The research question was provided by community members who observed that the history of the contamination in their community and all the efforts to get it cleaned up were being lost as people aged or left the area. Government documents and academic papers are sometimes the only lenses into the historical happenings and many times undermine the community’s experience. So I partner with community members at the Tucson International Airport area Superfund site, and the Iron Key Mine in Humboldt Smelter Superfund site where I implemented a community-engaged oral history process, and completed 22 interviews 11 at each sites, and this resulted in a digital archive, that’s easy access. So if the audience is interested in reviewing or seeing this archive, you can just Google my name and Voices Unheard and it should pop up. But what I learned from this research is that these narrations that individuals have are valuable environmental observations, they’re actually empirical observations that can supplement or fill in scientific data about a Superfund site or the health outcomes here. To improve the qualitative tools available for environmental historians. I also provided analytical lenses, that you can read deeper into the narrations that are provided by these oral histories. So I utilize the lens of social heteroglacia, and critical race theory to offer new ways of approaching how individuals are knowledge brokers in the spaces and how they function here. And also the counter stories that are emerged to point to the systematic inequalities in popular history.
Brian Bienkowski
So I’m wondering, you mentioned growing up that there is helicopter science in your community. So there’s a big time gap there between that happening in this and your doctoral project. And I’m wondering if there was other instances or other things, lightbulb moments, because it’s not always common to partnering with the community the way that you did here. It’s not always popular in academia. That’s not how research is always done, wrongly, as we’ve pointed out on this podcast a lot. So did you get pushback for wanting to go that route? And kind of where along the way did you have, were there other instances where this was the way that you wanted to go when it came to approaching community research?
Denise Moreno Ramírez
Because of my experience, as a young individual in Nogales, and experiencing that helicopter research, I really, it really made me think about the methodologies we apply. And I had to extend into medical anthropology to kind of find some of the methodologies that I felt would actually support and uplift a lot of communities. So because of that, it just became a mission of mine, to be able to discover like these participatory methods, and in a way manipulate them that they can, I guess, like how I said uplift voices and do things for community members. I definitely have had people question the type of research right, that I do. I know that a lot of the granting systems also do not provide the funding and a lot the time that is needed for a lot of this. So it’s definitely an uphill battle. But because I’m from an environmental justice community, I have a stake in all of this as our I don’t know if I’m supposed to use that word, so I apologize. So I have basically an interest in all of this. And for me, it’s really important because for me, this is not like something that when I retire, this is the end of my career. This is actually where people were that I grew up with. It’s like a whole other level of responsibility I feel I have. So I think I’ve just been very, you know, like, strong-headed to push these methodologies,
Brian Bienkowski
for sure. And now some of your research is focusing on exposure to toxic in auto shops and beauty salons, right there in Arizona. So first, what exposures have you found? And why are they concerning?
Denise Moreno Ramírez
Yeah, I’m a postdoctoral researcher in the laboratory of Dr Paloma Beamer at the University of Arizona. And we’re focused on volatile organic compounds, or VOCs, found in the air of beauty salons and auto shops in Tucson, Arizona. And these VOCs get into the air because of the products that are used in each of the workplaces. And in the case of beauty salons in combination with heat styling that’s applied. And the VOCs in these workplaces have also been shown to have negative effects on individuals health, in particular, the workers that are here spending a long period of their time here. And individuals exposed by these VOCs usually experienced like eye, nose and throat irritations, headaches, loss of coordination, nausea, damage to liver, and damage to central nervous system. So these workplace environments are concerning because of workers in these industries are exposed to these compounds for long periods of time. And also recent studies have shown that salon workers actually have direct impacts by these chemicals in their body.
Brian Bienkowski
So what are some of the ways, whether it’s at the workplace level or at the policy level, that we could be better protecting these folks?
Denise Moreno Ramírez
Well, in the workplace placed level individuals can implement the hierarchy of controls. And that’s something that we have based the project on. And that’s elimination, substitution, engineering, administrative controls, personal protective equipment. But then on the policy side, we need to pressure governments to strengthen existing worker policies that result in safer work environments or join coalition’s pressuring companies to develop cleaner products. We need to eliminate harmful chemical products period.
Brian Bienkowski
When you, when you talk to some of the workers that are in these auto shops and salons, are they aware of these exposures? Or are you are you bringing them news, bad news?
Denise Moreno Ramírez
No, I’m not bringing them any news at all. They’re actually very intelligent. And they’ve observed the diverse health outcomes that they experience. So a lot of time people self-report like allergic reactions in their skin, or different headaches or things of that sort. And a lot of them are aware. And a lot of times when we approach them, it’s kind of a game for them to try to say, Hey, do I want to know what I’m exposed to or don’t I? Kind of thing.
Brian Bienkowski
Right, because they have to continue to work, unfortunately, in these conditions. And, and this is somewhat related to the beauty salon track that we’re on. And I happen to know that you’re pretty passionate about beauty justice, and we’ve talked about this quite a bit on this program. Especially how many beauty products for women of color can be especially toxic. Can you talk about your experience navigating harmful beauty standards and why this issue means so much to you?
Denise Moreno Ramírez
Yeah, for me, beauty justice is personal. When I learned that women of color have higher body burdens of chemicals, because of the products they use, or the racialized marketing that corporations apply to increase sales, the topic of beauty just captivated me because I ultimately understand this topic at an intimate level. I’m a woman of color. And for a long time, I’ve been pressured by a lot of racialized beauty standards. And that has influenced the products I use, and, and the way that I style or make my looks. So this is a very personal topic for me. And that’s why I’m so passionate about it.
Brian Bienkowski
Do you do you have plans to or are you engaging in any research specific to personal care products?
Denise Moreno Ramírez
No, I’m not. We’re only focused on the volatile organic compounds in workplace air at this point.
Brian Bienkowski
And where did those VOCs… so if we’re talking about salons, I think auto shops are maybe a little more intuitive. Where do VOCs come from? What are they, what is making them go into the air?
Denise Moreno Ramírez
Yes, so a lot of them are found in the actual products that a lot of the salons utilize. So once they’re applied either through shampoo, conditioner, style, I mean products, hair oils, different things like that, you start actually placing those chemicals into the air, they conserve volatile lighting. And then when you apply the heat styling, that’s actually really important. That’s when you actually make the chemicals volatilize more into the air.
Brian Bienkowski
So when there’s heat applied, things get worse gets into the air, and then it can be inhaled.
Denise Moreno Ramírez
Correct. And that’s kind of what we’re trying to figure out is what’s happening in that air? Are you VOCs being generated because of the amount of VOCs in there, and then also the amount of heat that’s being applied just to the entire salon? Those are the questions we’re trying to figure out.
Brian Bienkowski
I think one of the things that surprised me as a younger journalist covering chemical policy, chemical regulation toxics, was I just figured that if something was used, that it was safe, that it was proven safe. And then if it was in shampoo, or whatever, that that someone had said, Okay, this is good. And of course, that is not the case, is it?
Denise Moreno Ramírez
Yes, that is not the case, unfortunately.
Brian Bienkowski
Unfortunately, we are being failed. Well, some of the signs can be heavy. Of course, most of the folks we talked to on this podcast, they’re the research is kind of down, it’s a little bit of a downer, understanding that you’re doing this to make people’s lives better. But I do want to ask you, what are you optimistic about whether it’s about your research or other other kinds of areas of interest, what makes you hopeful?
Denise Moreno Ramírez
So I’m optimistic that the earth is resilient. During the pandemic, I had the privilege to be able to go out into these beautiful spaces here in Arizona, and I started just realizing how, you know, meanwhile, we’re experiencing this pandemic, when I was out in nature, I was just seeing how everything was just so perfect. And I realized, and that brought a lot of comfort to me that the earth is going to be alright.
Brian Bienkowski
So we noticed that animals returned in some areas that we hadn’t seen before. And air pollution plummeted in some cities during the pandemic. And of course, we say all this knowing that there was a lot of pain and suffering going on, in concert with that, but was there anything kind of geographically that you noticed, that was different? Or was it just kind of seeing things with new eyes, because maybe you had more time?
Denise Moreno Ramírez
It was really just great to experience for the first time hiking and camping. And then it was also great to just experience everybody else that was rushing to nature. So we’re very fortunate here in Arizona, that we have a lot of open space and very gorgeous, beautiful desert. So there was a lot of people just going out and trying to just be in nature during the pandemic. So it was great to see others trying to do the same things.
Brian Bienkowski
Yes, I found my, I live in a very rural area. And I found my experience of the pandemic was vastly different than many friends that lived in dense cities because they felt trapped and confined. And I was like kayaking. And again, this is not in any way to make light of what was a very, very kind of crisis-ridden situation. But in terms of being quote, unquote, locked down. I didn’t I never felt very locked down. It was just a lot of outdoors time. So I’m glad. Glad you got to experience that as well. So before my last question, I have three fun rapid-fire questions for you where you can just answer with one word, or a phrase, my favorite movie is
Denise Moreno Ramírez
The Muppets Take Manhattan.
Brian Bienkowski
I just watched the Muppet Christmas, this past Christmas, and I could not get enough of it. It was fantastic. The best piece of advice I’ve ever received is
Denise Moreno Ramírez
Behave well.
Brian Bienkowski
If I could live anywhere in the world, it would be
Denise Moreno Ramírez
An island in Belize.
Brian Bienkowski
And, Denise, this has been so much fun to get to know more about you and your work. And I really appreciate your time. And my last question is what is the last book that you read for fun?
Denise Moreno Ramírez
Oh, Brian, you know what, I really tried to read a cool book before this interview. I really did. But that did not happen. The last book I read for fun was Charles Dickens’ “Great expectation.” Believe it or not.
Brian Bienkowski
Yes, that’s a fan, That’s a fantastic one. And since it’s been a while what How about like, Have you watched a good movie or TV show lately? What are you What How about on that front?
Denise Moreno Ramírez
Well, I you know, what I’ve been watching a lot? is those new programs that their reality programs, but it’s the individuals that have to survive in nature. I’ve been very interested in those programs, because that’s one of the things I don’t think I could do. So it’s been great watching.
Brian Bienkowski
Yeah, I think there’s a lot of so I actually I do hunt and fish but I do think there’s a lot of that more than sometimes I’m comfortable with thinking about being out there for months having to survive like that. So it is a different different mentality to go and be there with a knife and nothing else but. So Denise This has been so much fun again. It’s been so great to hear more about your work and I’ve really enjoyed my time working with you here at the fellowship. So thanks so much for doing this.
Denise Moreno Ramírez
Me too. And thank you Brian for inviting me. This has been great.