Nsilo Berry joins the Agents of Change in Environmental Justice podcast to discuss hidden toxics lurking in buildings and what sustainable construction looks like.
Berry, an Agents of Change fellow and health impact researcher for the Healthy Building Network, also talks about how his past work in Africa impacted him, and his love of sports.
The Agents of Change in Environmental Justice podcast is a biweekly podcast featuring the stories and big ideas from past and present fellows, as well as others in the field. You can see all of the past episodes here.
Listen below to our discussion with Berry, and subscribe to the podcast at iTunes, Spotify, or Stitcher.
Editor’s note: The views expressed in this podcast are those of Mr. Berry and not from the Health Building Network.
Transcript
Brian Bienkowski
All right, I am super happy to be joined by Nsilo Berry. Nsilo, how you doing today?
Nsilo Berry
I’m chillin’, man. Really good outside Portland here in Oregon’s pretty decent right now. And I don’t think it’s raining right now at the moment, i might say so. So, but the last few weeks have been kind of pouring. So I like the rain. So I’m kind of disappointed it’s not raining, actually.
Brian Bienkowski
Well, I drove home in in a snowstorm yesterday from west of where I live. And I’m the same I’m strange and that I like the bad weather. There’s something about it that does something to the mood. Well, speaking of, speaking of place, let’s let’s go way back to the beginning. So you’re not originally from Portland, you grew up in St. Louis, Missouri. So tell me about your upbringing and how you think it shaped you
Nsilo Berry
Yeah, great question. My parents, my mother specifically was in the military. So I did a lot of moving around. One of the other senior fellows, Lariah, she had a similar experience in her podcast talking about that. So for me, I kind of connected with that as well. So for me moving around, seeing different, a bunch of different places living with a bunch of different family, extended family in particular. But we started in St. Louis around 2000s, my mom got out of the military, if she had my brother in the late 90s, she took a job as a flight attendant. And so we kind of settled down there, it’s kind of being like our home base. So growing up in St. Louis was a really, really unique situation for me a really fun time kind of growing up African American middle class family. And so for us, it was really important about just kind of experience different things growing up. I was in Boy Scouts, became an Eagle Scout, went to public school, went the private school, had a chance to to be part of different liberal organizations grown up throughout the community. And so for me, St. Louis is really kind of the foundation for who I am today. A lot of my great friends still live there today. Fell in love with sports there too. And so for me, St. Louis has a special place in my heart. But really, you know, when I became a teen, I felt like I just kind of outgrew the place because in that in a way it is kind of small. And so once you kind of do everything there, I was looking out to the world and so living next to the airport was kind of this always “my head in the clouds” in a way type of thing, because I saw plants come and go. And so I was like, “you know, I’m gonna be on the next plane out of here when I have an opportunity to see the world for myself.”
Brian Bienkowski
I want to hear more about Eagle Scouts. Was this something that was just something that was part of your family did other people go through this and and did it open your eyes at all to the environment and nature?
Nsilo Berry
Yeah, my father he was in he was in Boy Scouts when he was growing up. But he had a bad train accident when he was little and he lost his legs. And so now he’s permanently disabled. But for him being part of just kind of that environment. And at the time, it was kind of just the young boys growing up together. So for me, Boy Scouts was a way to just experience the space around me and my community, but also to nature. So camping was a big part of that. So having a chance to go into different cabin reservations, explore the campsite, keeping them clean, of course, but also respecting the space in nature around you and also having an understanding of kind of like animals and environment and ecosystem too, also while learning different skills. Like for example, I remember through Boy Scouts, I had a chance to ride a horse. I don’t think I would have ever done that if it would have been for Boy Scouts or something like that, right? starting a fire, surviving, putting tents together. And for me Eagle Scouts is the highest rank of that too. And so that was just an opportunity for me to go grow outside of myself, but also challenging myself and also do with some of my great friends. They recently just had, I think the Eagle Scout organization just had their 50th anniversary. And so I had a chance in a book to talk about my experience, I got a book back from that. And one thing that was unique about kind of where I grew up is that all my closest friends, like three of my closest friends, all Black, all Eagle Scouts, which is really unique for that scenario, and the situation at the time in St. Louis. So thank you, my troop, troop 531. And then the leaders at the time to help me shape that and also my friends was incredibly invaluable experience I still talk about to the to this day that people ask about my resume, you know, when I bring it up, or when I talk about it.
Brian Bienkowski
That’s so cool. And I think I mistakenly call that Eagle Scout. So it’s Boy Scouts, but Eagle Scout is something that you reach
Nsilo Berry
Yeah, it’s that it’s the highest rank in Boy Scouts. So it’s like through all kinds of your merit badge collection, camping, being in leadership positions, but also kind of culminating in an Eagle Scout project. And so that project is then kind of encapsulate, encapsulate all the work that you’ve done over kind of the period of your scouting career. And then you do that project, you get it approved, then you talk about certain things. And so you got to do that before your 18s, like when you age out. And so I was able to do that, got my Eagle Scout, and then graduated high school, and then you know, went on to college, and so on and so forth.
Brian Bienkowski
I promise I’ll move on from this, but I’m fascinated. What was your project?
Nsilo Berry
yeah, it was a I worked at. So we have a there’s an eagle bird sanctuary in Missouri. And so they do a bunch of different projects with scouting, scouts and stuff like that. So I chose a project related to honeysuckle kind of extermination. Honeysuckle in Missouri at the time is an invasive species. So it sucks up the nutrients of local kind of ecology and wildlife in the area. And it makes it hard for other animals like deer to kind of eat the native plants that are responsible for it, and they can’t eat it fast enough, then fashion grows. And so honeysuckle getting to suck the nutrients out of all local plant life. And so for me, I chose that –I have this weird kind of masochistic thing where I got to do the hardest thing and challenge myself– And what’s all about layering, I guess, when it comes to sports and stuff like that. So I said, they said, Hey, we have this problem, honeysuckle, can you help us get rid of it? I said no problem. So I got a bunch of pals together, my friends and I people, my troop troop mates, we went together started pulling the honeysuckle out, put them on the palette. So they they they can be exterminator take it to another place, an exterminator burned, whatever the case may be. So we put all those out. And after that, they came back, I think there was another project that kind of ran concurrently with mine. And that was replaced with other more natural life species, plant-like species that were able to be then eaten and maintained by the local plant life and animal life there too. Another one, my friends build the bird cage at the bird sanctuary. So we have a lot of people that kind of just like involve ourselves within that space. And so super thankful to that organization and the people there at the bird sanctuary. And I’m really thankful for the opportunity too. I think I have like a plaque somewhere on a tree over there. But I haven’t been back in so long. I haven’t really like confirmed or anything like that, too. But really unique experience for that.
Brian Bienkowski
Yeah, that’s so cool. Thanks so much for sharing that. And it sounds like there was a lot of a lot of engagement with the environment and nature here. But this kind of leads into my next question is where did kind of science in the environment come into play during those early years?
Nsilo Berry
Yeah, like, and I don’t know, if you remember this, I don’t know if this is the St. Louis thing. But in the summer, this is back when West Nile virus was like a huge thing, right. And so they used to have these trucks, they used to go around spraying these chemicals throughout the neighborhoods. And it was to help maintain mosquito birth and help decline and helps prevent that from happening. But it always smells so nasty all the time. You knew when they were coming out, you didn’t want to be outside with your friends, when the vehicle come out. The vehicle didn’t care, they would just drive by you probably wave out I’m not thinking twice about because the same person doing the work every single day. But it had this really bad smell to it. And so I always thought about like, what does that like that can’t be good for you know, people coming inside, I know, my parents would tell me to come inside when that pressure would come outside. So I had this weird kind of, this weird kind of relationship with things like that happening in our neighborhood and thinking about these type of things. But the most I was growing up I knew about mold obviously, I knew about lead in water those type of things. But for me, that was kind of where that that fascination with the environment in the things came apart. My family has always been into respecting the where you where you go, where you come from, and leaving places better than where you found them, which also has to be a scout slogan, too, as well, we’re talking about the environment as well. And so those type of things kind of just reinforced kind of personal behaviors of mine. And when I think about the world, animals, and the environment around us when it comes to to care about these things that then extended through my education, and then ultimately into where we are now when we talk about environmental justice and housing and other sorts and also toxic materials, too. So that’s kind of where all those foundation things, the initial curiosity came into play but then, you know, formalized with, you know, formal education practice and also experiences and talking to people and so on and so forth.
Brian Bienkowski
Yeah, and you’ve been able to take these these early values and make a career out of it, which is very cool. And before we get to that, which we’re going to I want to know what is the defining moment or event that shaped your identity up to this point?
Nsilo Berry
Yeah, it’s it’s a big one. And I think that it kind of leads into the question we talked about, some of the work I did in Africa. And for me, that’s the biggest one. I had an opportunity when I was in college, undergraduate at Drexel University in Philadelphia, to travel to the Gambia, Western Africa, very small country in Africa. And so I had opportunity to work as a kind of biomedical engineer and in a program there through their Drexel University. And for me, you know, as an, as an African American person growing up in America, obviously, there’s you have the understanding of kind of like, think about it like point z, which is obviously being in America. So obviously, knowing that I’m an American here at this point. But point A being what is the beginning point of that? We know it’s historically Africa. But we but we don’t have any kind of like formal connection to that as as Black people here unless you kind of trace your lineage back through slavery, and so on, and so forth. And so for me having the opportunity to really go back to Africa and reconnect with kind of that part, knowing that, not necessarily specifically knowing what maybe what tribe or what kind of country that I emanate from, my family came from, but really just having this, this influence of understanding of some part of me feels connected to this continent in a certain way. And that will be one thing that, you know, for anybody who, who goes back to a place that they know that their family comes from, but especially a Black person going back to the continent, I think having the opportunity to really immerse yourself in the culture and the people around you is, was the biggest shapeshifting thing. I had a person tell me, he said, Hey, Nsilo, you look, I can show you a picture, you look just like one of my cousins here, right? And that’s me, I’ve, that’s the crazy thing I’ve ever heard, right? I’ve never, I’ve never really got that in the United States. But having somebody saying that, to me was just like this opportunity. Like you have people here that there is some lineage here of you that, you know, comes from this place here. And that, to me is the biggest, I think one of the biggest shapeshifting opportunities for myself, I turned 21 there. So it was a coming-of-age thing for me personally, to experience that in Africa. And so that has, to me, is the ultimately the biggest Shapeshifter when it comes to my identity, and thinking about Africa and talking about and supporting the economy, even to this day.
Brian Bienkowski
That’s so cool. And I know at the time you were working at the intersection of engineering, public health and environmental justice while you were down there. So can you tell us about the actual work while you were there, and any challenges working in a different country, and also any victories, any good things that came with the work?
Nsilo Berry
Yeah, a lot of the work involved, I worked with a group called Power Gambia and they’re a solar kind of working group. And they work with kind of with renewable energies. And so they have a claim that they invested in down there, where they have solar energy, really, to the clinic, because a lot of sun when it comes to kind of petrol fuel sources, they’re unreliable, they’re hard to get. And at the hospital, they can go to anytime. And so in a hospital, you obviously need functioning things in order to help with kind of the patients in in different things in the moment, so. So for me, they have these things called solar suitcases, and these are kind of like, like a smaller miniature version of solar power systems, where you can then connect them to different clinics. And so I had the opportunity with me, and another another woman named Mary, she was a journalist, but also did some nursing stuff down there, too. And so we traveled throughout these different clinics here and installed the solar suitcases in these different clinics. And throughout all different parts of Gambia traveled the whole, the whole country there. And for that, for that reason, there were people, doctors delivering children with kind of thing about like an old Nokia phone, with a flashlight in their mouth, delivering the child, you know, in the dark, right. And so these are kind of things that where they have the opportunity now to have the solar system where if the child did come at, you know, a inconvenient time like children do, especially when they’re being born, obviously, they had opportunities now to have the adequate equipment, the lighting sources to have say, hey, we can deliver shot in a safe environment, where we can then have the right tools to do what we have to do but also if you have to escalate the issue to another clinic, we have the ability to make that communication and say, Hey, we need to go to the bigger clinic in a closer neighborhood or closer community, so we can get the children what they need. So a lot of that work on that development type of things. And also just kind of fixing, you know, equipment throughout these different hospitals, a lot of people would ask you to do certain things for them. So leaving things again, better than what I found them, but also investing in these clinics for long term so that they can have things that they need, because it is hard to get these places. Like if you don’t have the proper four-by-four vehicle, a lot of places are hard to get to a lot of people use donkey cart, which is very, you know, when we’re talking about an emergency, just not economical and not viable. Or people use transportation, which is hard to get to as well. And then after that significant walking obviously, because the distances are just so vast on the continent, especially in Gambia too, even as a small place, a small country. So that’s what much of my work centered around that. I had a whole hospital also an opportunity to travel to different parts of the country, especially during the holidays and stuff like that, too. So, but again, very, very important. The victories part of that world, having just opportunity to meet different people, to get some of this equipment up as equipment was, is hand-me-down equipment, so things that hospitals don’t need anymore, they pass to the clinic, and a lot of times they’re broken, they’re not very viable. So I had to fix them and then had to send the information to the other people that are addresses, that are there, so they know how to fix it when I’m gone. And so those are type of things that I think for me ultimately the most frustrating thing because you know if you want to be you want to see people succeed, you give them the best chance to, that’s what, I think that’s what a great coach will always told me so you know when you’re good giving bad equipment and people coming to you don’t really see them, you don’t want to see them succeed. It’s just something that you know how no longer have to pay for, to maintain, so you’re passing that along with somebody else to deal with that, which to me, I think is completely unfair if you’re talking about kind of like helping people and giving people the best opportunity to be kind of successful in their own environment. So that’s the biggest challenge. But you know, everybody else around it knows kind of their situation. And they’re constantly working to better their situation, which is always, to me, the most kind of respect I have for the group and the people that work in those environments in those places.
Brian Bienkowski
And maybe this is hard to answer. But I’m wondering, how you’ve carried that forward, that feeling that you had of having been there and having met people? And that sense of place? How was that? How have you carried that forward?
Nsilo Berry
Yeah, that’s a great question. I think for me, when I got there as a 20 year old initially, there’s this kind of feeling like, um I, what I’m the stuff am I doing isn’t impactful enough, there was a moment in in when I was working there, where I was walking to kind of my office, and you see some there was somebody on a morgue, they were covered up, and I mean, on a gurney, they’re covered up deceased, and there’ll be taken to the morgue. And so it’s free, that’s a real moment of kind of understanding, of really understanding that, you know, this is people’s lives are on the line here, like, and the work that I’m doing has impact on people’s lives. And so that responsibility weighed on me in a way where it didn’t feel like a burden, or something that you would fall but felt like a responsibility and a moment of opportunity to be your best version of yourself through the combination of work and training that you got up to this very moment here. And so I took that kind of that, that motivation, and carried that with me, but also with that, but also with the support of the people in the clinic who trusted I knew that I knew what I was doing there, right, that would in middle night would call me to come fix the oxygen concentrator for somebody that was you know, that needed it, that would come in and say, hey, great job on this great job in this facility, we need your we need you to go to this clinic in this part of the Gambia. And so I took that, that that motivation and courage and that support. And that’s something that’s been stuck with me throughout this moment in time, everywhere I’ve gone. And it’s always this kind of this, this idea that wherever where I am in that moment, I’m supposed to be there. Because the work that I put in, prove that I’m supposed to be there. I had a moment in college and I forget this was kind of like, I was in a lecture hall, giant lecture hall, and we’re talking about, you know, electronic stuff about, the teacher’s laying out their expectations and what to expect from you. And I remember coming on to lecture hall, just got because like 18 or so. And I felt like at the moment in time, the stage was too bright for me, like metaphorically speaking, like, I don’t know if I can handle this., I remember I called my mom from the lunchroom at Drexel. I was like, You know what, I’m gonna transfer, I’m gonna get into something else. Like, in that moment, I really want to run away from that thing. And my mom said something that was just the simplest thing, but she said “Nsilo, you know, where you are? I’m like, I’m at school, and she said, “the job of the teachers there is to also to teach you those things, too, right?” And I said, You know what, that makes a ton of sense. So that all that anxiety I had pent up about I should know these things already. What didn’t make any sense in that moment? Because I’m getting to a place where they’re supposed to teach me how to how to put these connections together, how to solder this, how to do that, what is the capacitor? What is that, whatever. I said, You know what, okay, I’ll do that. And from then on, I take in the moment, like, when I’m jumping into something new, this is the first moment where I’m gonna be the least kind of knowledgeable on the situation, and then you build upon that day each and every single day doesn’t mean they’re not gonna be harder days later. But this is the moment in time where you’re gonna just be the most lack of you’re gonna have the most lack of knowledge in the moment. And that you can build upon that moving forward. And so I’ve always kind of taken that mindset. And then really, from there jumping in things with both feet, and then figure them out as you go in that thing, with the support of others in your team and people around you too.
Brian Bienkowski
those things are so common among successful people, I think. Both learning humility, I think is really important. But also, there’s something and I see it with people in this program all the time, is people who are really hard on themselves, you know, feel like you should know all these things. But learning to rely on others is so important. So I want to fast forward to your work that you’re doing now, which ehn.org is very familiar with, because we’ve we’ve worked with, worked with you folks a little bit. So you are at the Healthy Building Network. And I don’t think most people think of buildings when they think of toxic chemicals. So first off, what are the concerns there? And how do these materials impact people’s health?
Nsilo Berry
And that’s a great question, Brian, for me, think about it like this. I want everybody who listened to the podcast, think about how much time you spent within the building, whether it’s your home, whether it’s a place of worship, whether it’s your work, whether it’s a school, right? think about what that really means and compare that to the time you spend outside, right, I’m not talking about like cracking a window from inside your home, but really spending time outside. I think people will be hard pressed to think that they spent a lot of their time inside, taking in kind of all the fumes and the materials that they build from, either from furniture or from carpet or for whatever the case may be or from maybe paint that they maybe they painted a new room in their home or something like that. Um, so when it comes to toxic materials, we’re talking about things that, you know, manufacturers put into their their products to make them more viable, to last longer on the shelves. But oftentimes these things have detriments on kind of our development human beings. Rather, it’s kind of things related to carcinogens, things related to kind of developmental toxics, it’s for individuals who are pregnant, or things that just don’t go away what you call PBTS, a persistent biochemical bioaccumulative, toxic, it’s things that just don’t go away, they’re mad annoying, trust me, right. And so when we talk about these, these chemicals, and the impact of these, these are some things that if I go into a room for like an hour or so and then leave, okay, and I never go back in the room, that’s one thing. But we’re sleeping in these, we’re staying in these, we’re building our lives in these. And so that’s where kind of the, the systems of these chemicals begin to infiltrate into ourselves, in our body. And our body begins to kind of be impacted on these in a way where we see more cases of higher asthma in poor housing, right? we see higher incidence of carcinogens and people who work in PVC locations or PVC factories, right? we see these things where individuals are becoming contracted with the disease at a higher rate, right, where it just doesn’t make sense compared to the rest of the population, right. And then you start looking at kind of the digest of materials when it comes to building homes. And places that have affordable housing are built with legacy systems, poor materials that that needs to be replaced, that haven’t been replace compared to maybe a suburban home, that has the most green places, is the most green kind of facility or home management, whatever you want to say, that has just a much more healthy kind of one, functional way to it, but also scientifically, a lot healthier compared to the individuals who live in the community housing that you might see in more urban areas. So think about, think about the impact of that. And think about kind of what that means for you long term, what that means for your kids. And what that means kind of for individuals who might find themselves kind of immuno-compromised, but also develop conditions, you think that would just don’t make quite much sense when you compare it to either your cohort, the people who live next to you or the people who live in different communities that you see just lower incidences of these type of things like asthma, like the development of cancer in particular. So that’s kind of where those those kinds of two fields intersect. It’s one of the type of things that if you don’t know what you’re looking for, you’re not going to find it, you don’t think it’s just a home I’m coming into. But people have an idea when they see these type of things about, I don’t feel safe in this home, this home feels kind of like a kind of maybe like a prison, I don’t feel healthy in this place. I want to get out of this place. We have this intuition as human beings. So I think it’s very interesting to, to think about too, when it comes to kind of the place that we live and where we, you know, make our lives and so on and so forth.
Brian Bienkowski
I think the bringing up the idea that low-income housing is often more saddled with these things is really important. Because when I talk to people about the work that we do on toxic chemicals, is you okay, yes, it’s bad, you’re exposed to something that could harm you. It’s bad, but then you think about the downstream impacts. So you have a family who’s already low income, now is saddled with health problems and their children are, so is their health care available? they probably don’t have adequate access to health care or aren’t offered from their jobs if they’re low income. So it’s the cycle, you know, and then the kids are growing up in an environment that makes them sick more, and then they stay in low income housing and the cycle continues. So I think it’s important to think about these kinds of generational impacts. And it’s just kind of a system keeping the foot on the throat of certain, certain groups of people. So I think that work, the work that you’re doing is very important. And where does kind of Healthy Building Network fit into this? Is it just on kind of the advocacy of safer materials and trying to get these bad actors out of building materials?
Nsilo Berry
Yeah, as a we, we kind of ourselves as a research organization. And that’s where we are. So a lot of the work that we’re doing, we put together, we look into research. So we’re looking at a bunch of safety data sheets, and harmful product declarations, what are in these chemicals? How do we get rid of them, but also how we manage them too. Another part of our work is kind of managing our Pharos database, which is a database full of different chemicals that come together from different lists and regulatory lists throughout the world. So we have lists from Japan, we have lists from America, we have lists from Canada, Europe, that list where these kinds of chemicals fall on these different registrar’s and what they mean for kind of the the human impact, but also environmental impact too, where they’re talking about ozone depletion in particular, as well, but also kind of where these chemicals fall among kind of the toxic spaces and, and kind of how do we get the information out to people so they know, architects know, building owners know, developers know, “hey, I’m putting this type of paint that has these type of chemicals in it, just so you know, this chemicals are associated with these types of hazards. So you got to make better decisions here.” Right and also part of our work is creating these kind of this product guidance or these how to spectra that shows you kind of ranking these things from like a stoplight system like saying hey, Green has the least toxics in it, where Red is kind of the worst type of thing you want to avoid these type of things and really, you know a lot of our guys is kind of staying out of this kind of orange zone and moving away from the red and and making the the easy wins and the easy victory so to speak, when it comes to kind of developing your home and putting kind of the best things in your home for the right reason, so to speak. So that’s where we fall on it. We’re a small organization. So we have to know our limitations. So when it comes to the advocacy side, Brian of it, a lot of it is working with groups like coming clean, for example, health organizations like that, who have the kind of the bandwidth to kind of do the more kind of vocal stuff or working with kind of more grassroots things related to that maybe like the NAACP, they have a great CSBs sustainable equity, and the sustainable building sector. That’s the kind of their side organization is related to building. So working groups like that, when it comes to the activist side of it to help kind of push that message out, helps with kind of our work so that we’re not overextending ourselves, too. Because I think as researchers, I think that one thing we have to kind of do is focus on our thing, but find the ways where we can work with other people in a team to impact the space more kind of effectively.
Brian Bienkowski
And are there examples of whether it’s companies, building practices, projects that you’re seeing that are doing this construction in a healthy, sustainable way?
Nsilo Berry
Yeah, there’s two that come into mind. We worked with a group called Sara architects, I believe they were started in Portland, but they have offices in California. It was a demonstration project that we work with them about a new project they’re building in California for individuals who are low income, low income housing. And for them, they’re really I really want to champion them as an organization because they care about healthy materials, and building them and making them part of their mission there too. So they came to us, we talked about the project and they said, “Hey, we’re building these prizes with these so many units here. What are the ways that we can improve this project to make sure we can make it the healthiest as possible as viable within a kind of our constraints, our budget, so on and so forth.” So we have the opportunity to go back and forth with them. So my colleagues … we did a great job at kind of telling us, okay, this is a victory. This is a point here, you can do choose better paint here. What about the drywall here? What about the carpet here? Making just better decisions throughout that so people don’t have to think about that, because you mentioned that earlier, Brian, people saddled with all these issues here. And I think part of our work is it’s kind of take that burden off of them. So they can focus on the things within their lives, rather than thinking about, hey, can you replace these pipes, can you places drywall, can you replace this paint for me, like those things should already be taken care for. If you care about the people early on, that’s something that people shouldn’t have to worry about. They should be trusting that coming into a home, they’re getting a safe product, like almost like ordering some food, they’re getting a safe, healthy, you know, dish that they’re getting here, it hasn’t been tainted with this, and it has good, you know, products in it, ingredients in it, so to speak. And the same thing should be with your home too. When you’re coming into your house, you space, those things should also be healthy too. I don’t care if the person is low income, I don’t care if the person is a veteran, that has no impact on those type of things. In comparison, we’re talking about individuals who are higher income, who are more privileged, right, those things should be the same for both people. And so that group is a group that gets that we’ve worked with them previously, we do a bunch of webinars with them. And so that’s something that they care about, too, as well. Another group is United Interest for Justice, a community grassroots organization based in Minnesota. And they did a great job at working with different groups and helping getting people away from abusive landlords. And doing so they take over the the kind of the, the the tenant to take over the apartment complex. And in doing so they have the opportunity now, to redefine what’s important to us, what are the things that matter to us, more building these apartment complexes out, right. So a lot of it is retroactive birchbark, and get these old materials out that didn’t replace, we’re getting this old paint out, they didn’t replace, we’re getting this old drywall out, they didn’t replace so working with kind of the local banks and getting the loans that they need, but also working with us to say, Hey, if you’re going to replace your place, think about this paint that you should be using because this paint doesn’t have XY and Z in it. Right to help with kind of long term impacts we’re talking about. We’re talking about furniture, look with furniture that doesn’t have halogenated flame retardants in it. Right? So working with a group like that, who’s taken the opportunity to say, hey, we’re at the foundation, we need to start building a foundation properly. So how do we how do we reach out to Who do you work with so those are two groups that I believe that, you know, when they’re talking about a foundation, they know kind of who to get involved early with. And so when it comes to health materials start early, it is a lot easier and a lot cheaper for you in the long run to put the stuff in at the beginning. Rather than try to come come back in later or try to redefine processes later, where you kind of have the systematic approach to something already, it is a lot harder to redefine behavior that you learn especially bad habits, rather than starting a good habit and building upon good habits moving forward. That’s a lot more. And that’s I think that’s a lot more fundamental, fundamentally viable for your organization moving forward, but also for the people who occupy your space that you build, moving forward to as well. So start with good habits early, build on good habits later and maintain those in the present. That’s what helps impact healthy materials, you know, on a systematic level.
Brian Bienkowski
It’s a great point. I mean, the most obvious example of that is lead paint, right? I mean, we use lead paint for years and to try to get rid of it in houses now create sometimes creates more problems because you’re just kicking up dust. So that points well taken. So in your Agency of Change essay you talked about inadequate affordable housing in the US and ways to do it better. So you’ve talked about the links between toxics in the home and low income housing, but this essay was more about just being able to afford a home. I mean, you talked a little bit about healthy materials, but it was more about just having homes that are affordable and something you can be proud of. Can you explain why this too is a health issue and how this fits into your Healthy Buildings work?
Nsilo Berry
Yeah, that’s a great question I mentioned at the end of it, starting with kind of the fundamentals and the foundation, which I kind of ended my essay with come to that point, too, as well. And the point is that is that we’re talking about healthy materials. Think about it like this. It’s a it’s it’s a part of the umbrella that you go way down in the chain it but it’s not the biggest part that covers the entire kind of encapsulation of affordable housing. Like for me, you have to begin with the foundation part of it, which is affordable housing and wheeling starting with those those positive systematic impacts. If you cannot do that, then when you get to healthy materials, you’re just not going to have the time or the space or the opportunity to say, hey, we need to get this lead paint out of here, right? The lead paint being in those in those homes. That is a systematic that people did way back when that people now have to live with today till today. So getting those out, and it’s going to cost even more money, it’s going to be a retroactive issue that builds up over time, like, and so we’re talking about groups like NYCHA, for example, who I was critical of in the essay, it’s not that because people in there don’t care about that they don’t have the opportunity or the space to care about these type of things. Because they’re, they don’t have a lot of individuals who are committed as far as just kind of having the the power, the employee power to do what they have to do. But it becomes an increasingly expensive issue when your organization is lacking the funding either from state or from a federal sense to make the change that you need required, right, it’s a lot more, it’s a lot easier to have just a plot of land and build up and have everything that’s just clean and green, and so on and so forth, rather than having these old decrepit buildings, tearing them down, building them back up doing this doing that getting construction in there, it all becomes a logistical nightmare, because these are in urban areas with surrounding businesses, and you have to get permits, and it becomes just a thing where at this point, why are we even talking about the materials at this point? there are so many other issues that linger throughout this place that healthy materials is not even like, you just listen to me like, like five minutes in like a community hearing just because you have to, you know, do have the time or whatever the case may be so. So when it comes to healthy materials, you know, I like to advocate for solution that when it becomes really sensible and viable to do so just saying, hey, we need to do these things. That’s great. Right? But you have to understand the concept of what you’re asking people to do what you’re asking for folks, right? If people get to them, say, hey, we can we can talk about health materials law, like United Interest for Justice, right? That’s a great opportunity talk about that moment, after they secured the new apartments after they secured after the move away from the landlords, after they secured the funding, rather than trying to talk to them as they’re going through this kind of this logist this kind of legislative nightmare to try and beat the landlord, the abusive landlord from you know, getting separating them from their the current apartment complexes, right. So you have to have this opportunity to understanding when to do these things, and get to people early, but be smart about and recognize kind of what’s on their plate, and not just pile more stuff on there. Because if you’re piling a bunch of solutions that aren’t, that aren’t, that people cannot hold together, it’s all just going to fall apart. You’ve seen that before in a bunch of different spaces where people try to do too much. You have to do enough in the moment and be forceful in those moments, to then push things forward at the next moment, if that makes sense, right?
Brian Bienkowski
It does make sense and your point about almost making it for people who are doing the building and making those decisions, making it an economic win for them, you’re not going to have to go in and redo things and constantly be changing things do it right from the beginning, and then you save money in the long run. Unfortunately, we don’t we don’t often think like that. What are people that are making decisions don’t. So before I switch gears a little bit and get into some fun stuff I’d like to ask folks some of this work can be can be heavy, although it sounds like you guys have had some some significant victories along the way. But what makes you optimistic in this space?
Nsilo Berry
And it’s a great question. I think for me, the big part of is that I’m I’m meeting different people every day that that that are that one wants to have the conversation, but how can materials which is important in anything, but are saying hey, let’s do a project together. Let’s do these things together. So they’re reaching out to us or to other organizations about the materials. They want to know more about them, and maintaining a relationship and moments like that. So we can build upon kind of a new culture of healthy materials. That’s what makes me the most optimistic about it today. I think that a lot of kind of in in having it being a small organization that we are as HBN we have a lot of influence and a lot of different space from either connections and people knowing us. And so we’re, we get constantly invited to talk about things to do about to do these things. But I think something that we’re now asking people to is that if you’re going to ask them do these things. What are you being committed to after this conference, right? Don’t just take this this weekend here in June or July just to have us here. But let’s build upon something moving forward. You know, how are you building these practices into your architecture firm? How are you building these things into local legislation? if you’re part of kind of like statewide legislation that comes to housing, these things are things that people are excited to do, and we brainstorm and we have this conversation with them about. So I think for me, that’s the most optimistic part about this. And I think people are getting to the moment where we’re understanding that, that you know, as the dawdling can’t continue to go on, because that means that the people who are most saddled with this, as you mentioned, Brian, continue to still be in that situation, we don’t have time to dot all this, we know what the issues are, we know what the problems are, it is now to start building things, you know, correctly moving forward. And course correcting kind of that work that we that was done previous before us a proof of work jumped into these positions, up position until today. So a lot of that is, I think, for me, where my optimism lies in this kind of work. And I’m really excited about the the people that I’ve met, and the people that I’ve continued to meet, that are doing this work, and it seems like you’re just meeting different people in different spaces in different kind of, you know, you know, positions that you don’t have the influence to say, hey, you know, we’re gonna start doing this now moving forward. And to me, that’s a big victory, because that’s gonna mean something to that family that moves into that development two years from now, right. And that’s gonna be something to you know, that generation, family, and so on, and so forth. So and that community, so to speak. So that, to me is where my I think my optimism lies the most.
Brian Bienkowski
That’s excellent. And I mean, those kinds of collaborations in my work to you, when you start realizing that a lot of people are rowing in the same direction, and you can kind of combine your power is, it really is a bright spot in a lot of this environmental work. So you mentioned earlier, taking the hardest path and being a masochist. And maybe in sports. Well, I’m a Detroit Lions fan. So I, I think I may be when the masochism on that front. But I want to talk about sports, we had a chance in person to talk about this. And I know, we’re both sports fans. So what’s, what role do they play in your life? And who are some of your must-see teams?
Nsilo Berry
Yeah, absolutely. I think sports for me is a big part of kind of what I think about today, I watched less kind of the sport debate shows just because I think they’re so dramatic and really corny at times, but, but I’m always down to have a sports conversation with people that I work with, and things like that. But for me, sports is has been a big part of kind of my development as a person. I think it helps me kind of understand this, this understanding of, you know, when you make a decision, you have to understand a few things associated with that. One, you have to make the choice. So kind of the courage and bravery to do so. The second part is understanding sacrifice, and other part is consequence. So those are those three type of things. I think I learned that from playing sports and understanding that these things all play a role in the space here, especially in a team sport, right? There’s gonna be people next to you, you don’t know how hard in the offseason they’re working to do their, their their game, right. But if they put on that same jersey, as you, they’re your teammate in this moment, and you gotta live with whatever happens in that moment, whether you make this a mistake, whether they make a mistake, it’s, it is what it is, but you have to live with that. And that’s something that you accept when you put that jersey on, right. So that’s the decision you have to make. I think for me understanding consequence and sacrifice, I think about those things when I make decisions today even kind of in my in my work, but also kind of in in my personal life too, as well. And I think it helped me understand that you know, anything worth having, you have to make a certain sacrifice for it. And I think that when we talk about certain things, and we discuss things, maybe on a more kind of political and societal level, I think we, the patterns that we run into, are individuals unable to understand that they have to make the sacrifice, or they don’t want to make a sacrifice, because they want to have it all. And you really can’t have it all. If you want to see the changes that you want to see as a society, we’re gonna have to make a sacrifice on this particular issue. It’s going to be certain consequences, you might get a certain backlash from your group or constituents. But there’s some things that you have to do. We’ve seen that when, when we talked about kind of January 6, and the attack on the Capitol, you saw the Republicans who said, Hey, I think we should have a committee, and you saw the backlash they got from their other constituents on that, right. So those type of things were, that’s the kind of a sacrifice and you get frozen out from that. And you might have just killed your own political career, because you went against the grain of everybody else associated with you, right. And so that’s just one example. But that’s kind of how we talked about it on the bigger scale, and we tried to have it all but you really can’t have it all. You have to make a decision. And I think and I think having that helps me understand, face disappointment, helps me helps me kind of understand success, and helps me how to build upon the next day too. Because that moment doesn’t signify everything for you. You also have the opportunity in the next moment to be better than you were in this previous moment. Whether that whether that was a victory or a loss in that current moment, you can still build upon the next one. And so we’ll be talking about kind of like my favorite teams watch obviously being from me, I should say, obviously, I’m a huge Eagles fan. So watching that stuff, obviously tough loss in the Super Bowl. I don’t want to talk about it – I blame Rihanna dammit, you know, that halftime show. I’m just kidding, just kidding, she was sensational, sensational image, even if she was pregnant she was sensational in that half-time show, really. But somebody like Patrick Mahomes is it’s must-see TV. Like, if you want to lose to somebody, you want to somebody who might be one of the greatest ever do it. Like, he might be those people like you know, we’ve talked about great players he prevented a lot of other great players win winning championships because he was so damn good. That to me is incredible and but also seems more like Andy Reid in it, it takes the pain away less. I did cry dude, after I was mad because I spent so much money on food. I My, People came over, I sent them home, I think I closed my door and I think I just went to sleep. I maybe cried. I think I woke up I saw some tears my pillows. But the point is that but people like that it’s just people you have to, you have to respect people like that. Those people who go through it, who fought he was having a bad ankle, he fought through it, still was able to a way to get through it. Even Jalen Hurts, our own quarterback, bad fumble comes back brings the team back, he was going toe to toe with him, with Patrick Mahomes. And so someone like that is someone you’re incredibly proud of as Eagles fan to see that. So, for me, it’s always going to be the Eagles, Mercy TV. And now so I’m Patty. So Dallas is my must-see TV two, because they’re going to disappoint you, when you need the most to do it. They’re gonna disappoint you too. So there must-see TV too, for me as well. So, but no, I think that’s sports, for me is an incredible moment and something that I think about even to this day, and I love of course, the competition of it, there’s some competition, I think is is very beneficial for your growth. People understand it’s not about the person you’re facing on the field or wherever you are, that person is a physical manifestation of an impediment in that moment, because I personally want to change next week when you come to a different type of game, right? So it’s not the person, that’s important, right? It’s that moment, and how do you overcome that moment, and that’s the preparation to your teamwork, to the sacrifice, to the consequence, all those decision making. That’s what’s important in that space. And I love that part of sports so much.
Brian Bienkowski
I do too. And I think you put it really well, all the lessons you draw from playing sports and, and watching it to a large extent too and learning from the people that that that put up all that sacrifice. There’s a couple other things I’d add, and maybe they’re not as important, but I feel like sports is a real connector for me. I mean, the first time I met you, I mean, we talked about it I when I when I don’t see my uncle’s who maybe I disagree with on all kinds of other things. It’s something it’s common, it’s just common ground. It’s something that we connect with. And the other thing is it’s it’s relatively light. Like I could listen to podcasts on sports throughout the day and not feel the existential crises of the work that we engage in. So I like that about it a lot too. Awesome. Well, the sale this has been a lot of fun. I have a few more questions here. And this is just rapid fire three questions where you can just answer with one word, or a phrase. So if I could vacation, anywhere it would be
Nsilo Berry
I’d be in a submarine or on a boat, traveling the seas for an extended period of time that I would do something like that, something involving the water
Brian Bienkowski
I like that. My first concert was
Nsilo Berry
My mom took me to, when I was little, KC and the Sunshine Band. They were on tour somewhere I think in Virginia, something like that. So I went to one of their concerts,
Brian Bienkowski
Man, that is a that is a really good one. If I could have dinner with one person living or deceased, it would be
Nsilo Berry
Baseball opening day’s around the corner, Jackie Robinson. I would love to talk to him.
Brian Bienkowski
Another great one. Well Nsilo, what is the last book you read for fun and you don’t have to confine yourself to one word or phrase here.
Nsilo Berry
I did The Little Prince and check this pronunciation now: by Antoine de Saint-Exupéry. You see, I didn’t practice it, practice that right before the podcast everybody. I’m just kidding. I practiced that right before the podcast, I was practicing in the greenroom. But no, I think the Little Prince is it’s essentially just about a pilot who crashes lands on a planet. And meets this Little Prince, and they just have a conversation about life and talk about these different things like this. And so it’s a really interesting journey about kind of just finding your own growth in your own space. Something similar too. if you’ve ever had the collection of short stories of The Jungle Book, by Rudyard Kipling. It’s not the kind of thing about that when Mowgli is kind of going through his own his own kind of transition where he kind of missed the jungle. But he gets to a point where Bagheera the Panther tells him say, hey, Mowgli, like you’re of age, you’re your of age now and the people that you, you know that we will always love you. But that’s not who you are. You have to go be with your people. And you have to go can experience life on your own and on your own terms. And that’s something that I think about a lot too, especially growing up in from St. Louis, like, you move away from those people that are your best friends and all your childhood friends. And you have to grow and experience the world that the way that you know for what’s best for you. And that’s always a I think it’s always a tough intersection to overcome. And think about, but books like that always helped me kind of just think about kind of similarities in those tough choices we think about kind of in life today and so on, so forth.
Brian Bienkowski
Awesome. Well, thank you so much. It’s been really great to hear more about your work and your personal story. Nsilo, thanks so much for doing this.